Valve: Demoman stickies = "winbombs"

[Brandname]

From a lengthy email response from Robin Walker to someone on the Steam forums:


Q. Some people are saying that the stickies for the demo are to strong. To the point where 3 stickies can remove a sentry, a dispenser and a full health Engie. Is this something that can/is being addressed or is it classed internally as “balanced”?


We agree that they’re a little too overpowered right now. In fact, internall, we refer to them as “winbombs”. We haven’t reached a decision on what we’ll change yet, though.http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699622

Sounds like they might nerf the demo again.

[Kilz]

Demo doesn't need nerfed.... Pyro needs nerfed.

[Jokerz]

WOW

good nerf demo and pyros jeez.. am getting tried of nub players with no skill killing me cause they have more health then me....

[Kilz]

WOW

good nerf demo and pyros jeez.. am getting tried of nub players with no skill killing me cause they have more health then me....

KABLOOOOOOEEEYYYYYY!!!!!

[yum yums]

While I agree that the pyro needs to be toned down and the Demoman does NOT need to be touched, I also think his stickies (in clusters) are a bit lame, especially given the scenario of 3+ bombs taking out an engineer's compliment of buildings in one area AND himself.

But it doesn't happen enough to me to care whether or not it gets changed. TF2 is still fun.

[Timmah!]

WOW

good nerf demo and pyros jeez.. am getting tried of nub players with no skill killing me cause they have more health then me....
demos have 175 health. You (assuming you're playing soldier) have 200 health.

They better not nerf the demoman. If the engineer is stupid enough to stand by all his stuff while I take the time to put 3 stickies around it, then it's his own damn fault if he dies. The smart ones pull out the shotty and either charge me or shoot the stickies off. This is getting retarded.

It still takes some degree of skill to play the demoman effectively. But they're not going to nerf the class that doesn't have to reload and still be fairly effective by doing nothing but charging straight at people? (of course, I'm referring to the pyro)

[Brandname]

I don't favor a demoman nerf, especially since it's one of my favorite classes to play. But if they did, I hope it would just be a small damage reduction in stickies or something, nothing major. Perhaps make it so a sticky doesn't do more damage than a direct-hit rocket? Since they don't suffer the same damage falloff that the rockets do...

[Prosthetics]

I definetly agree that demo stickeys are a little overpowered given that any demo, moron or not can destroy engie's sentry with ease.

[Blonde]

I'm quitting tf2 if valve fucs this game up more than they already have. Every update better be only good news from here on out.

[XrazorX]

demo man is the last class that needs nerfing they should definately focus on scrapping pyros they have a load of health and the only damn thing you need to do to play pyro is press W and hold down your left mouse button, while demo at least requires a certain degree of skill

i would have rather the game stayed the same and they forgot all about this new gun nonsense tbh

[Timmah!]

I definetly agree that demo stickeys are a little overpowered given that any demo, moron or not can destroy engie's sentry with ease.
Not true. A moron will be dead before they get the 3rd sticky out. In fact, even I usually die in the process of or shortly after destroying sentries because after taking a few hits from the sentry, I'm easing pickings for someone else while I'm busy getting those stickies down unless I have a medic. Besides, there's a reason why he's called the DEMOMAN.

Should Engineers with a level3 sentry be invincible? Does Valve want people to turtle even more? If they keep at this, a defense of half engineers and half pyros will win every time. So much for teamwork.

[Irvine]

demos have 175 health. You (assuming you're playing soldier) have 200 health.

They better not nerf the demoman. If the engineer is stupid enough to stand by all his stuff while I take the time to put 3 stickies around it, then it's his own damn fault if he dies. The smart ones pull out the shotty and either charge me or shoot the stickies off. This is getting retarded.

It still takes some degree of skill to play the demoman effectively. But they're not going to nerf the class that doesn't have to reload and still be fairly effective by doing nothing but charging straight at people? (of course, I'm referring to the pyro)

I couldn't agree more, I don't think stickies are over powered in the least. Like Timmah said, it's the engies fault for being a dumbass when he watches stickies get thrown on his set up while he keeps thwacking his sentry with a wrench

[Iron Lung]

I'm sick and tired of people saying all you need to do to play a good pyro is charge and fire... Pyros are still easily bounced, charging a heavy is still suicide, 2 stickies takes us down like anything else... I'm sorry all these noobs are running around with backburners and extra hp, but the way you kill a pyro hasn't changed at all since the patch. So stop whining just because you haven't had to deal with pyros till about a month ago, cause thats all it really is, people just getting used to seeing pyros on a regular basis now. I get frustrated too because its hard to take down a fellow pyro who has 50 more hp then you, but its still totally doable. Anywho.. thats it for ranting, but seriously it still takes a skilled hand to effectively use the new pyro tools and get more then one kill per death.

Also... why the *^#$*^#$*^#$*^#$ would you nerf the demos? Stickies are powerful but they are one of the more awkward things to shoot in the game and honestly, what sentry doesn't have at least 5-6 other guys in the nearby vicinity ready to *^#$*^#$*^#$*^#$ up anyone who dares approach without an uber.

[eb0]

First off, the only thing demo has is a distance game, if a scout run up to us were screwed. we can not take anyone on even a spy in an up close battle. and of course 3 stickies can take out an SG, but thats only if 2 are crits, normally it takes at least 4. And the ability to get that close to an engi's sg means that we'll die before getting 2 shots off. we need an uber to easily take out SG's. we can charge up the sticky and shoot it farther, but usually by the time we get 2 off we're bombarded by enemies who stop us.

What ticks me off is that as demo, I can have 3 stickies directly under a pyro and it doesnt kill him, last night I was pyro and I walked directly on top of a crit sticky, and it didn't even kill me. It's rediculous. What needs to happen is NERFTHEPYRO, Make the soldier better/morepowerful/moreammo/morehp, and leave demo exactly how he is.:sign0149:

[eb0]

I'm sick and tired of people saying all you need to do to play a good pyro is charge and fire... Pyros are still easily bounced, charging a heavy is still suicide, 2 stickies takes us down like anything else... I'm sorry all these noobs are running around with backburners and extra hp, but the way you kill a pyro hasn't changed at all since the patch. So stop whining just because you haven't had to deal with pyros till about a month ago, cause thats all it really is, people just getting used to seeing pyros on a regular basis now. I get frustrated too because its hard to take down a fellow pyro who has 50 more hp then you, but its still totally doable. Anywho.. thats it for ranting, but seriously it still takes a skilled hand to effectively use the new pyro tools and get more then one kill per death.

Also... why the *^#$*^#$*^#$*^#$ would you nerf the demos? Stickies are powerful but they are one of the more awkward things to shoot in the game and honestly, what sentry doesn't have at least 5-6 other guys in the nearby vicinity ready to *^#$*^#$*^#$*^#$ up anyone who dares approach without an uber.


I disagree, I barely ever used to play pyro, and when the update came out I was amazed how fricking easy it is. All you have to do is go in with the backburner and try to catch ppl off guard, I can kill everything in my way and ALL i do is hold the fire button down and burn them, if they run away I'll shotgun, but pyro I think now has too much hp.:character0006:

[hot6]

blah me hates demo!

[Brandname]

I disagree, I barely ever used to play pyro, and when the update came out I was amazed how fricking easy it is. All you have to do is go in with the backburner and try to catch ppl off guard, I can kill everything in my way and ALL i do is hold the fire button down and burn them, if they run away I'll shotgun, but pyro I think now has too much hp.:character0006:

Being a mediocre pyro is really easy, especially when you're playing against not so great players. But being a really good pyro is still really hard. Even after the pyro buffs, it's still a serious question whether pyros are good to use competitively or not since they're still prone to juggling and have a very limited ranged arsenal.

I think the 50 hp was an awful lot to bump up a pyro, and I don't think I'm sold on him having 25 more hp than a soldier. But I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

[Phearr]

Nerf the pyros they are so rigged i get killed by noobs

[Jokerz]

sorry my statement was directed at pyro's not demos I eat demo's for breakfast...

[Timmah!]

First off, the only thing demo has is a distance game, if a scout run up to us were screwed. we can not take anyone on even a spy in an up close battle. and of course 3 stickies can take out an SG, but thats only if 2 are crits, normally it takes at least 4.
You're wrong on this part. Crits don't do any more damage to buildings than normal - this applies to any class, not just demo. Though if either of my first 2 are crits, I will detonate right away to kill the engi (and anyone else nearby). Then it's just one more to kill the sentry - and even if I die before the 3rd sticky, at least then the sentry is damaged with no engi to repair it - so hopefully the rest of my team will have little problem finishing it off. But anyway, 3 stickies, at point blank range (right under or next to the sentry) will indeed destroy a level3 sentry if detonated at the same time.

And the ability to get that close to an engi's sg means that we'll die before getting 2 shots off. we need an uber to easily take out SG's. we can charge up the sticky and shoot it farther, but usually by the time we get 2 off we're bombarded by enemies who stop us.

Very true... I made the same point earlier.

What ticks me off is that as demo, I can have 3 stickies directly under a pyro and it doesnt kill him, last night I was pyro and I walked directly on top of a crit sticky, and it didn't even kill me. It's rediculous. What needs to happen is NERFTHEPYRO, Make the soldier better/morepowerful/moreammo/morehp, and leave demo exactly how he is.:sign0149:[/quote]
This is true as well - at least for buffed pyros. I like the good ol' days when 3 stickies at close range would kill a pyro. Now it takes 4, just like heavies. The only problem is that unlike heavies, pyros are fast (and faster than demos), so if you don't kill them quick, you're screwed. And I used to turn around when a pyro got too close so that my stickies wouldn't detonate behind them, but now that's certain death, so once a pyro gets close, I have no chance - especially with the buffed fall-off damage.

@Iron Lung. I agree with you, good pyros will not charge blindly and heavies usually win 1 on 1. And a skilled pyro will fair better than a newb, but pyro used to require skill be effective, and now they don't. Yesterday, my team gave up on playing offense on HoD (which equates to surrendering), so I switched to pyro and just starting running out with the left button held down, running around and setting as many people on fire as I could. I died a lot, but at the end of the map, I had twice as many points as anyone else on either team. Tell me that isn't phucked up. I'm not saying I'm a newb or bad at pyro, but I certainly wasn't doing anything tricky.

[bobbydole]

I disagree, I barely ever used to play pyro, and when the update came out I was amazed how fricking easy it is. All you have to do is go in with the backburner and try to catch ppl off guard, I can kill everything in my way and ALL i do is hold the fire button down and burn them, if they run away I'll shotgun, but pyro I think now has too much hp.:character0006:

Honestly I think almost all the classes have an element of easiness, at least for most of them, any body and pick up the class and do OK. That's probably why tf2 is as popular as it is, any noob can play and still kill other people.

However I hate demomen. I hate their spamming stickies and nades. I hate that they always kill me. They're like the easiest to play, so they should be nerf'ed.:character0007:

[Timmah!]

sorry my statement was directed at pyro's not demos I eat demo's for breakfast...
not me, you don't! But I'll assume you mean nube demos. :)

[Timmah!]

Honestly I think almost all the classes have an element of easiness, at least for most of them, any body and pick up the class and do OK. That's probably why tf2 is as popular as it is, any noob can play and still kill other people.

However I hate demomen. I hate their spamming stickies and nades. I hate that they always kill me. They're like the easiest to play, so they should be nerf'ed.:character0007:
May you burn in hell forever.

[PandaBear Assassin]

not me, you don't! But I'll assume you mean nube demos. :)

Timmah! I pwn you ALL the time!!!



lol wow that really did sound good.....

[bobbydole]

Y
What ticks me off is that as demo, I can have 3 stickies directly under a pyro and it doesnt kill him, last night I was pyro and I walked directly on top of a crit sticky, and it didn't even kill me. It's rediculous.

I think it's clear what happened here, you suck at Demoman, and you're like the best pyro ever. ;)

[Timmah!]

Timmah! I pwn you ALL the time!!!



lol wow that really did sound good.....

LOL. 1map != allthetime

[bobbydole]

Care to fix your quote? eb0 said that, not me.

Oops. Sorry about that!

I've never played with eb0 before. I hope I didn't hurt his feelings, maybe he's sensitive about this lack of demoman skills.

[Frodo De Mar]

Not true. A moron will be dead before they get the 3rd sticky out. In fact, even I usually die in the process of or shortly after destroying sentries because after taking a few hits from the sentry, I'm easing pickings for someone else while I'm busy getting those stickies down unless I have a medic. Besides, there's a reason why he's called the DEMOMAN.

Should Engineers with a level3 sentry be invincible? Does Valve want people to turtle even more? If they keep at this, a defense of half engineers and half pyros will win every time. So much for teamwork.
agree 100%
Dont need any change on the demoman

[Iron Lung]

Oops. Sorry about that!

I've never played with eb0 before. I hope I didn't hurt his feelings, maybe he's sensitive about this lack of demoman skills.

hes just sensitive. period. and doesn't know how to kill pyros.

ANYONE can murder stupid people with a pyro. You just gotta play around them with a little FRIGGIN intelligence. You don't charge a heavy, you don't chase a demo, you don't hang out in the open for snipers to headshot you, and you don't try to CQB a pyro. People are just too stupid to pick up new habits. Also.. this bullshit about "catching people offguard" isn't that what spies do? Isn't that what EVERY class should try and be doing? A soldier/demo/heavy ambush is just as good as a pyro ambush, all do insane amounts of damage in small amounts of time, and aside from the heavy, both soldiers and demos have plenty enough splash damage to be comparable to the flamethrowers area of effect.

[Mr. Happy]

I mostly play demo and scout, and I find it pretty hard to kill a charging pyro. I mainly use my stickies in active combat, rather than trying to hit people directly with grenades just put stickies in the air or ground where they will be ya know.

Pyro is pretty much the only class that will charge you directly, is faster than you, and does alot of damage per sec. I find it really hard to get my stickies where the pyro will be, and with the health boost they are I think more powerfull than heavies (in the pyro vs. demo dynamic) since you can dance around heavies.

Someone said earlier that demo doesn't take much skill, I think that's absurd. On defense maybe, but on offense it's the only class that doesn't shoot directly at the enemy. I think your shooting requires much more timing and though than other classes and you don't have something like a shotgun to fall back on (i.e. soldier).

it's not easy to take out sg's unless your hiding since soldiers will knock you into the line of fire.

I don't think the current demo weapons need a change, but maybe for an unlockable I would consider three things in some combination: reducing damage, increasing splash area, removing timer. Any combination of the two would make me quite happy I think.

[ShangoXG]

haha, demoman easiest to play, oh god some people can be so dumb...

Demoman,
if played right - amazing,
played averagely - they will do well enough,
played badly - are REALLY FREAKING BAD!

pyro,
if played right - amazing,
played averagely - damn good,
played badly - still get way more kills than they should ffs.

Demoman don't need to be nerfed, if they are nerfed then everyone will say "engies are freaking overpowered do something!"...then engies get nerfed, which leads either to -
A) An endless cycle of offence, then defencive classes being constantly nerfed till all classes have 100 health and a shotty with no crits and 5 shells.
B) Everyone stops playing because Valve have destroyed the game.
C) Valve tells everyone to "STFU!" and removes all new class content and lets these whiney noobs burn.

personally i like C very much.

[JMaster299]

With 100+ hours logged as a Demo 3 stickies often is not enough to take out an Eng encampment. More often then not it takes at least 4 and in the time it take to fire those off and trigger them they can be simply blown away by any class on the other team. A Demo with other offensive back-up can some times get away with less then 4 but that is because the Eng and his equipment are already being damaged by the players. That's just team work which I would figure is what you are supposed to do in a game called TEAM Fortress.

If the Engs have half a brain they don't build their equipment right next to each other. That is the counter balance to a Demo as often you only have time to go after one target during an uber because of the slow rate of fire and the ability of the other team to remove both the Stickies and the Demoman. The Pyro's air cannon as made that even easier.

The ability to shoot the stickies long range would actually be worth something if it had a decent rate of fire. A Demo standing around charging shots is easy pickings for Spies, Snipers and Soliders.

[billy pilgrim]

If I'd been asked about nerfing Demomen 2 months ago I would be all for it. It's my least played class next to Spy. I've also always found that I am being dominated by people playing Demo.

However.......

Lately I've been playing as Demo more and more. I've learned that on a good day you're f'ing deadly but you have to be on point. While playing as Demo I also started to notice the class's weaknesses. Reload time, limited ammo etc. So being asked today, Demomen are fine as is.

[JMaster299]

If I'd been asked about nerfing Demomen 2 months ago I would be all for it. It's my least played class next to Spy. I've also always found that I am being dominated by people playing Demo.

However.......

Lately I've been playing as Demo more and more. I've learned that on a good day you're f'ing deadly but you have to be on point. While playing as Demo I also started to notice the class's weaknesses. Reload time, limited ammo etc. So being asked today, Demomen are fine as is.

I totally agree. As a Demo I have good days and bad days, never just OK days. I know a lot of people hate Stickies but the best use for them is traps. With a trap you get a couple kills at most and then you have to run for cover. I can lay down 8 stickies and kill a few people coming around a corner but most often the people coming behind them prevent me from doing any more damage and people like to change routes when they learn you have one defended. Setting those traps have their drawbacks as I have said before a Demo standing around is easy pickings for Spies and Snipers.

[blahdan]

I dont understand why people are complaining about classes being overpowered. Ive never had any trouble taking out pyros and im not stupid enough to run onto a demos stickies. If people who are new to the game playing against players skilled at a class, such as soldiers and demos, and getting dominated all the time start complaining that 'class A is overpowered, need nerf' than they will never truly become good at the game.

The new pyro update has only been out for a month and it takes time for people to learn new strategies as the old ones may not be as effective as before. Dont start screaming that something is overpowered because it is new, wasnt this the case when TF2 first came out and people thinking spies were overpowered (i may be wrong on this). Imagine if they nerfed the spy back then. People need to just learn to deal with it and learn how to play the game.

Quoted from the valve forums:
"I don't think they stickies are over powered but I do feel that people use them too much. They ahve to do something to get people to want to use the pipe bombs. That to me takes skills to aim and hit people with. I do in air hits with the pipe bombe just to have fun. I use the stickies for intel coverage/point coverage."

This is what i mean, people think that because stickies were originally meant to be used as traps/defense, thats all that they should be used for. Each player has their own play style, some use pipes, others use stickies as offensive weapons instead of defensive. I for one cant aim with the stickies worth a damn so i use the pipes, and i admire those who have the skill to launch a sticky right where im going to be.

Im just sick of people bitching about how they get dominated a lot by a certain class. The answer is not to change the class, but change your playstyle.

[EpYx]

If valve keeps nerfing at the rate they do. Soon every weapon, for every class will HEAL the opponent instead of HURT them.


Gewd Gaem Valve.




And to be honest, I don't think any class is overpowered.
the DEMO man stands for DEMOLITION, right? blow shit up.
theres a reason they call him the "HEAVY"
pyros? overpowered? go get lit on fire, and see how fast you get put out, and how much it hurts.


about the 3 stickies killing a engi and what not. , a good engi should just build a teleporter BY his stuff, his exit. when stickies surround it, blow up your exit. send the stickies flying. baddies. [idk if that works tho LOLOL, ill have to try that lolol]

[billy pilgrim]

Im just sick of people bitching about how they get dominated a lot by a certain class. The answer is not to change the class, but change your playstyle.

Dude!

If that was directed at me......:fighting0040:

I was sooo not bitching about being dominated. I don't give a flying frak if someone dominates me. Being dominated by demomen was just something I had noticed during play sessions. I don't blame Demomen, Valve or the weapons for that. It's just part of the game to me. So is loosing for that matter. I have never been angry at the game or anyone playing it at any point during my TF2 foray.

If that wasn't directed at me..... :makeout:

People totally need to quit their bitching about unbalancing the game . This is Valve we're talking about here. I'm sure they have a team of guys who do nothing but play TF2 to ensure that it's still balanced. Relic has such a team for Company of Heroes why wouldn't Valve have the same?

[blahdan]

that wasnt directed at anyone in particular. It was just a general observation.

[SiameseDream]

sorry my statement was directed at pyro's not demos I eat demo's for breakfast...

I ate a nice bowl of frosty demos for breakfast this morning... those winbombs are doing a number on my stomach!

From what I've seen on other servers, our server's tend to have a lot more mic chatter and team work. That and the relatively high level of skill of everyone else keeps demos in check. I've crushed on other servers as a demo b/c people run blindly over stickies, place sentries in unprotected areas, and don't turn fire on a demo placing stickies.

Any changes Valve makes from here out will keep changing up the style of play on a set of servers like ours. People have been trained over the last six months in a certain style of play and now we have to adapt. Would you have rather that they taken the Blizzard "Hands-Off" approach so we could be like the crazy South Korean Starcraft/WOW players?

In Valve I trust.... for now. Just don't nerf my classes!

[Cavallino Rampante]

It is really interesting that so many people complain about the Pyros now that we got some upgrades going. Before that nobody even cared because Pyros were so easy to kill.

The same thing happened to me when the medic pack came along and introduced the upgraded needle gun. I too thought that it was overpowered, but in the larger context of things, It makes perfect sense because medics were so easy to kill before the upgrade.

I would argue that even with the health bump, it is still hard to take out a soldier due to the soldier's splash damage. Yes, maybe Valve went a little overboard with this, but the primary purpose of the Pyro has always been, since the days of TFC, to be a general-purpose support class. That means you do not have to kill people, you just need to soften 'em up for others to eliminate.

I have a fully upgraded Pyro and if I encounter a good soldier/demo (use your gan man??!), they can still own me.

For those who say Pyros are used for ambushing ... well, duh? Are you telling me that Soldiers, Demomen, Heavies, Engies, Spies aren't?

Tips to attack pyros:

1. Before moving into close quarters combat, trick the pyro by moving away from him (beyond the flaming range). This will lead him to pull out his shotty/flare gun to attack you. At that moment, immediately start moving towards him and crush him. This works very well with a fast class like a medic/scout.

2. I use this one a lot as a pyro, and as any other class: When you have someone chasing you and you go around a corner, they will think that you are still running away from them. However, what I usually do here is come back and take 'em out by surprise.

3. Soldiers: Despite the health bump, a soldier can easily take out or severely injure a Pyro using a well placed rocket.

4. Compression blasts: some idiot Pyros think that by repeatedly using the compression blast, they can avert all your rockets/pipe bombs/flares .. etc. But compression blasts are costly. So what you can do here is to force the Pyros to eat up their ammo and then charge them.

In short, just because the Pyro finally has a fighting chance against soldiers/demomen/heavies, doesn't mean it is overpowered.

And no, Playing Pyro is not just pressing the left button. As with all classes in TF2, you have to be cunning and calculating.

[Iron Lung]

thank you

christ people its a game, and like with all games, if you use your head there is always a way to beat it.

[screwed]

Did they already lower the damage of stickies, to yourself or how high you fly.. or something?
I just COULD not get up on the roof of B in Gravel Pit last night :P

Of course I suck anyway so that might be the cause

[Alvari]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed but the demos stickies do not have a total damage that they do. In other words lets say three stickies will do 300 damage (I know its actually more). The stickies won't kill the engineer and then use the 175 damage left one of the buildings and then after that building is gone do however much damage is left to that. The way the stickies work is that it will do the same amount of maximum damage to each thing is hits taking away some damage for splash distance. Three should be able to take out all of the engi the sentry and the dispenser because otherwise your looking at a lot harder offensive action as sentries will return faster then ever and should a first wave fail the second and third have an increasingly lower chance. If they want to try and address this, address it in the engi update somehow, don't somehow nerf the demo, or his stickies. He's been weakened enough with the self damage relatively low health, and ammo limitations.