Backburner: Sending Balance to Hell?

[GET OUT OF HERE STALKER]

OK, I've played for a few minutes tonight against a few players with the Backburner. The idea is that the flamethrower gets 100% CRITS to any enemy facing away from the pyro.

From what I've seen, it also gets either crits or significantly more damage against players facing the pyro, as well as things like sentry guns. A few people on the team I was playing compared it to the Spy's face-stab problem.

This might be true, or it was just a bad night for me. I'd like to see what other people think.

[GET OUT OF HERE STALKER]

Addendum:

I've read that one change is the removal of falloff damage. Now being at the outer edge of the flame causes just as much damage as being smack in front of the pyro. This will also make it a lot easier to kill sentries via edge attacks.

[eclyps]

yes. i have a feeling valve will address this issue soon... it makes things incredibly difficult. as you said, we all know how the spys can backstab you when you've facing them. same issue with pyro

[The Spyro's A Pie!]

Don't forget that the Backburner also boosts a pyro's health up to 225, higher than a soldier's health.

While I do think it is overpowered, it's not so bad as to break the game. Hopefully Valve will find some way to make it more balanced.

[Alvari]

The fall off damage is what bothers me more then anything. As far as the backburner is concerned, I don't know what to say. There is a trade off of the new compressed air, but you get 50+ health as a trade off for that. The definition of back also seems sketchy. Before I can really say that its over powerful, I would have to see it with falloff damage, though as of now, I suppose I would have to say it is a bit over powerful. Just try and keep pyros away from your back and when running away from one walk facing them and hope you don't hit a wall.

[Timmah!]

Frankly, I think Valve phucked the game over with this update. With the medic update, there was a slight improvement to the class, but not much. The ubersaw was the only significant upgrade, the other two unlocks had tradeoffs.

With the pyro update, they:
a) automatically gave everyone the compressed air-blast ability. Kind of an interesting feature, but it obviously diminishes the ability of demos and soldiers - now a pyro can guard a key sentry and not only check for spies, but also blow away demo charges and rockets.
b) for the flamethrower unlock, you trade the air-blast for guaranteed crits when attacking from behind. AND gives him 50 extra health. Not sure what this 50 health is for... I mean, you'll notice that for all classes, the health is proportionate to their weight and speed. Now the 3rd fastest class also has the 2nd highest health. WTF? The other 3 classes that have the same speed have much less health.
c) also increased the damage that the flamethrower does. There used to be a dropoff to the damage the flame does at the end of the flame - they removed that now. So even though you're just being singe'd by the end of the flame, now it does the same damage as if you were in the middle of the fire. WHY?
d) On top of all these improvements, they simultaneously weakened one of the classes that are good for countering pyros: the soldier. As Otis pointed out in another thread, they increased the damage that soldiers do to themselves when they fire a rocket at the ground or anything else nearby unless they jump.

WHY, Valve, WHY?! And here's what I consider proof that they upgraded the pyro TOO much:
a) It's supposed to be a TEAM effort. It used to be that the team with the best balance of good players in all of the different classes, working together, would win. That's a thing of the past. Now, on defense (in a CP map or a PL map), it's actually beneficial to have half the team, if not more, play pyro.
b) It's turned into a savage brawl. What used to be a game of skill now involves half of each team charging full steam and setting fire to anything that moves.
c) Adding the flare gun is good. It balanced a tradeoff of giving the pyro some effectiveness at range; but sacrificing the fire rate and medium-range effectiveness of the shotty. The new axe is fine, too - doesn't really matter. But the class didn't need a major upgrade. The pyro wasn't great in every situation, but every class has limitations - the pyro had it's uses and as I've shown in a screenshot, a good player could be the point leader and dominate half the opposing team just like any other class. But it required skill and if a pyro got behind you, at least you had some chance of surviving. Now we have yet another class that instantly kills from behind. How ghey.

Yes, I realize this is a lot of QQ, but I'm pretty pissed that the game I loved so much has become not so fun anymore. I just hope they remove the 50 health bonus, make the backburner 50% crits instead of 100%, and re-institute the damage dropoff at the end of the flame.

[ikem1223]

i knew timmah would have a speech written up for this lol

[Iron Lung]

I have no opinion about the backburner except its for pyro noobs. The only unlock I'm using is the axetinquisher. That being said, its also total BS.

At the very least the back burner needs to NOT crit anywhere else except from behind. And drop the fing health boost, its just ridiculous, even further strengthening my opinion that the backburner is there so noobs can play pyro.
What they shoulda done is kept the base flamethrower and then made the upgrade a flamethrower that never crits but can reflect projectiles(and maybe make the compressed air have a bit more range or a little easier to get the hang of)

Flare gun.. unless you have alot of trouble avoiding snipers and like to use this to throw a wrench in their game... its pretty useless.

http://stompfest1.hlstatsx.com/?mode=weaponinfo&weapon=shotgun_pyro&game=tf

vs

http://stompfest1.hlstatsx.com/?mode=weaponinfo&weapon=flaregun&game=tf

'nuff said

I guess that I'm mostly pissed that they didn't put more thought into the pyro upgrades, here I am a pyro whore, dedicated to mastering the class, and they get me all excited with updates and in the end I'm still rocking stock weapons and using the BS melee upgrade they are bound to give every class.

[JMaster299]

I have no opinion about the backburner except its for pyro noobs. The only unlock I'm using is the axetinquisher. That being said, its also total BS.

At the very least the back burner needs to NOT crit anywhere else except from behind. And drop the fing health boost, its just ridiculous, even further strengthening my opinion that the backburner is there so noobs can play pyro.
What they shoulda done is kept the base flamethrower and then made the upgrade a flamethrower that never crits but can reflect projectiles(and maybe make the compressed air have a bit more range or a little easier to get the hang of)

Flare gun.. unless you have alot of trouble avoiding snipers and like to use this to throw a wrench in their game... its pretty useless.

http://stompfest1.hlstatsx.com/?mode=weaponinfo&weapon=shotgun_pyro&game=tf

vs

http://stompfest1.hlstatsx.com/?mode=weaponinfo&weapon=flaregun&game=tf

'nuff said

I guess that I'm mostly pissed that they didn't put more thought into the pyro upgrades, here I am a pyro whore, dedicated to mastering the class, and they get me all excited with updates and in the end I'm still rocking stock weapons and using the BS melee upgrade they are bound to give every class.


I agree with almost everything said here with the Pyro upgrades being really messed up. Only thing I see is the Flare Gun has only been out for a total 3 days and not everyone has it so there is no way it will have any where near as many kills in the last 21 Days as the Pyro Shotgun. I have tried the flare gun and have found it to be useless but the numbers can't be used to back that up because there is not enough data in only 3 days for the flare gun with everyone not having access to it yet.

The flare gun would be usefull if it actually ignited a small area around it's impact causing burn damage for a few seconds to anything it touches. As it stands it's a bit difficult to get the aim and timing right to hit a moving target with out getting taken out by the same Sniper or Eng with a SG that the Flare Gun was supposed to help you fight against. And if an Eng his hiding behind his gun the Flare just goes out when it hits the equipment and is no more effective then standing back and using your shotgun at distance which will never do anything to a gun that's always being fixed. If it ignited the area around where it hits it would actually be a good weapon against Engs as it would damage them and any equipment next to them for a few seconds and cause a distraction while the other players attack. Against Snipers it would force them to move and keep them from reoccupying the same spot until the fire went out. This could give your Soldier or Heavy the extra 2-3 seconds he needs to move from behind a corner to other cover that gives them a line of sight on the other team.

[Frodo De Mar]

Yes, I realize this is a lot of QQ, but I'm pretty pissed that the game I loved so much has become not so fun anymore. I just hope they remove the 50 health bonus, make the backburner 50% crits instead of 100%, and re-institute the damage dropoff at the end of the flame.

totally agreed along with ever other point made. i guess the 100% crit part doesnt really bother me but why why why the 50 health bonus and no damage dropoff...so stupid. makes me really mad too when a team can be successful just by being a giant flaming horde of pyros. soldiers used to be pretty good against pyros (except for really smart pyro players) but now it seems that a pryo can just rush straight at a soldier and either will kill him almost instantly or the soldier will kill himself not even on purpose. and i have also headshotted a pyro recently and he didnt die because of health boost, much like the heavy sometimes doesnt die

also agree with the last point iron lung made about going with stock weapons. and i feel like pyro was a class not many people liked to play but i enjoyed it. now i feel like more will play pyro and people will be able to pick up a flamethrower and do well, without much experience. for this reason i dont like playing the class much anymore
(end mini crying rant)

[Blonde]

Really I think valve is just retarded for releasing these unlockables one at a time. With each release, the respective class becomes stronger than the classes that have only stock weapons/abilities.

As for the backburner, i think it could do without the 50hp boost. Thats like 2 advantages w/o a real disadvantage.

[elemental00]

i am kinda going the other way with this..pyro is, historically, one of my most played classes. and what ive played since the update i have not had any non back crits with the backburner. i have actually had problems with it not registering when i feel it should have been. but its probably just me.

the fall off damage is a huge thing, now you get nicked and it hurts. its not unlike 2 doses of ground fired splash damage making you go splat. it takes 2 direct rocket strikes, or 2 splash damages to kill you. the pyro now has that kind of punch.

the air cannon? i have no interest in it, its fun and annoying like the flare gun, but compared to the backburner...it is a gimmic.

I dont think that the backburner crits more than anything else. what i do think is happening is that there are 1000% more pyros running around, so your chances of running into one with regular crit fire are greatly increased; and we all know how fast that takes to kill anyone.

do i think they are going to nerf this update....yes, but dont forget this was also a free weekend for tf2....and you just have a bunch of people running around with, what probably is, a flamethrower.

i for one an enjoying it a little, the pyro is viable again if not only for a short time. no longer do they have to run from soldiers and heavies..
everyone said that the pyro is a non issue for competitive play, thats been fixxed. instead of juggling the pyro into the air with splash and finishing him off with splash.....the pyro now can juggle you. its poetic.

[GET OUT OF HERE STALKER]

As an aside, I've seen on another forum where some league players are planning to disallow the use of the Backburner in match games.

Also, after playing for awhile I was able to adjust to the imbalance - keeping better distance from Pyros, not turning your back on them, etc. Level 3 sentries can still blow away a Pyro if they attack head-on and cannot be edged out.

[elemental00]

easy rules.. never chase a demo man.....dont turn your back on a pyro.. easy?...yes

[tubby custard]

Meh, might as well toss my 2c in as well:
<rant><rant>
Regarding the backburner, I'm fine with the 100% crit and even random crit elsewhere so long as a) the health bonus is removed and b) the window for the 100% is somewhere in the 60- to 90-degree range behind - so they really have to be behind you as opposed to be more towards the back than the front.

The axetinquisher is annoying as hell to get killed with, but so far when I've been killed with it, I probably deserved it (it IS a melee weapon, so why did I let them get that close?)

The flare gun is novel, but not particularly useful.

And I keep forgetting that the regular gun has the air blast when I'm using it, but considering how much ammo it takes, it's better off used sparingly and I don't see any issues with it at the moment.

Dropping the flame damage falloff completely was probably not the best idea; perhaps they could have just lessened it. And the soldier self-damage adjustment doesn't make any sense, either. I'd think that tweaking the falloff might make more sense for that if they want it to not kill you during rocket jumping because having two different damage scales depending on whether your feet are on the ground or not is, well, arbitrary. Or move the distance calculation to be done from the soldier's head (so that the feet are farther away than a wall immediately in front of your face)?</rant>
</rant>

[.sf|BehavyuR]

In all honesty, I've equipped the Backburner a total of three times since I've gotten it, and every time I've been disappointed. The thing I disagree with most about the whole weapon is that it still crits from the front like the normal Flamethrower does, with that same percentage chance of doing it; this is totally broken, in my opinion, and needs to be the first thing to go. Having the extra health and the ability to crit from every angle with the Backburner turns the Pyro into some sort of kamikaze fireball, and combined with the zero damage dropoff, it totally unbalances the class. Anyone that got used to playing with the "old" Pyro equipment can easily use the Backburner to wipe out half of a team before being killed, and anyone new seems to turn into that kamikaze fireball I just mentioned.

Now that the regular Flamethrower comes equipped with the Air Blast, it has become far more valuable to me than the "upgraded" model. With Medic, I can always find a use for both of my Mediguns, whereas I almost never have a reason to choose Backburner over Flamethrower because of the Air Blast's range of capabilities. Honestly? The Air Blast should have been the upgraded weapon; whomever said that before me, I definitely agreed as soon as I saw it on your post. Clear out stickies, throw back rockets and grenades, separate Uber-teams, knock a point clear, and - I've heard some say - even throw back Lv. 3 Sentry rockets if you can survive the bullets; Pyro a one-man team, almost, with those capabilities.

Flare Gun is really only useful to me on fairly large, open maps. Nine times out of ten, I'm still using the shotgun. Axtinguisher is amusing to look at and fun to hit people with, but I've never cared much for melee in TF2 to begin with, so I don't get to using it a whole lot; I leave it equipped 'cause I rarely use the regular ax, so why not have it handy anyway? Overall, the updated weapons aren't nearly as useful to me as those of the Medic, but the actual changes to the class itself were, so they probably should have been the upgades. Maybe the Backburner should have been a Flamethrower with Air Blast and no dropoff instead, but with no crits? I'unno.

Them's my two cents, right thurr.

[billy pilgrim]

At first I didn't notice the Backburner's power. I was playing with it at first and doing well but then while playing last night I kept coming into Pyro v. Pyro matches and I would loose out simply because I'm not using the Backburner.

I would have to agree that there maybe some balance issues but lets not forget that TF2 is a multi-class game and is therefore a real challenge to balance. Balance is the main reason RTS games normally only have 3 factions. Although there are some exceptions to this rule I think Sins of a Solar Empire being a good example.

My biggest problem with the Pyro update isn't with any of the new content it's with players. Yes I know an influx of people playing the Pyro class is expected but has anyone else noticed the sharp decline in the amount of people playing as a Soldier. I'm finding these servers (SFs too) where there are 3 pyros and NO Soldiers. 3 Pyros is a fine number to have but a team without Soldiers just seems to be lacking umph!

Prior to the update I was an avid Pyro and I still enjoy playing as the class but for now I think I may go back to my old favorite the Sniper.

Since only two classes have been updated I'll say that yes TF2 is unbalanced but I'm sure Valve is working on things and the balance issue will be addressed as more classes are updated.

P.S

As far as the flaregun is concerned....... I love it.!

~billy

[Timmah!]

Generally speaking, I think it's best to use the stock flamethrower with air-blast when playing on defense (or being on the defensive); and the back-burner on offense.

[Iron Lung]

That extra 50 hp is really starting to piss me off. It really is coming down to noob pyros always winning cause they have more health. And the worst part is, it makes no freaking sense to give pyros an extra 50... Numerous people have said it, and why so I'm not gonna say it again, but I really hope valve fixes that bug soon.

[Timmah!]

As far as the flaregun is concerned....... I love it.!
I do, too and it can be handy once you get used to the trajectory and timing...but again, at least this stayed balance. That is, I like not being completely useless at long range, but it puts me at a disadvantage in 1vs1 matchups against other pyros because I used to always switch to shotty vs other pyros and try to keep out of the range of their flamethrower. And I usually won. Unfortunately the flare gun is pretty worthless against enemy pyros compared to the shotty.

[godslayer]

With the pyro update, they:
a) automatically gave everyone the compressed air-blast ability. Kind of an interesting feature, but it obviously diminishes the ability of demos and soldiers - now a pyro can guard a key sentry and not only check for spies, but also blow away demo charges and rockets.
b) for the flamethrower unlock, you trade the air-blast for guaranteed crits when attacking from behind. AND gives him 50 extra health. Not sure what this 50 health is for... I mean, you'll notice that for all classes, the health is proportionate to their weight and speed. Now the 3rd fastest class also has the 2nd highest health. WTF? The other 3 classes that have the same speed have much less health.
c) also increased the damage that the flamethrower does. There used to be a dropoff to the damage the flame does at the end of the flame - they removed that now. So even though you're just being singe'd by the end of the flame, now it does the same damage as if you were in the middle of the fire. WHY?
d) On top of all these improvements, they simultaneously weakened one of the classes that are good for countering pyros: the soldier. As Otis pointed out in another thread, they increased the damage that soldiers do to themselves when they fire a rocket at the ground or anything else nearby unless they jump.

I respectfully disagree. Pyro is not my main class but he/she is top 4 and though the pyro did have some use it just wasn't good for much other than senrty protection. Soldier, Demo, and Scout were all better than the Pyro in close combat.
a) Pyro's ability to remove stickes sucked. Plain and simple. Blowing them off in exchange for a 1 second penalty and 25 ammo is pretty fair. A solider and do it with on rocket and no penalty. A demo can do it with one sticky and no penalty. A heavy can do it with 25 ammo and no penalty. There's no reason a pyro shouldnt be able to.
b) I agree here. No need for the health without some tradeoff other than no air blast. Less ammo or slower walking speed could be options but??
c) Hit detection is so shoddy that hitting someone on the fringe usually meant a miss. I dont play pyro enough to care if there is falloff in damage or not but I think it's removal is fine. It's a lot more playable now without it.
d) Maybe as a soldier you should jump when you fire at your feet then?! Worst case you'll put more distance between you and the fire dude and you can put rockets into HIS feet then.




WHY, Valve, WHY?! And here's what I consider proof that they upgraded the pyro TOO much:
a) It's supposed to be a TEAM effort. It used to be that the team with the best balance of good players in all of the different classes, working together, would win. That's a thing of the past. Now, on defense (in a CP map or a PL map), it's actually beneficial to have half the team, if not more, play pyro.
b) It's turned into a savage brawl. What used to be a game of skill now involves half of each team charging full steam and setting fire to anything that moves.
c) Adding the flare gun is good. It balanced a tradeoff of giving the pyro some effectiveness at range; but sacrificing the fire rate and medium-range effectiveness of the shotty. The new axe is fine, too - doesn't really matter. But the class didn't need a major upgrade. The pyro wasn't great in every situation, but every class has limitations - the pyro had it's uses and as I've shown in a screenshot, a good player could be the point leader and dominate half the opposing team just like any other class. But it required skill and if a pyro got behind you, at least you had some chance of surviving. Now we have yet another class that instantly kills from behind. How ghey.

Yes, I realize this is a lot of QQ, but I'm pretty pissed that the game I loved so much has become not so fun anymore. I just hope they remove the 50 health bonus, make the backburner 50% crits instead of 100%, and re-institute the damage dropoff at the end of the flame.

a) It still is a team effort. Unfortuneately, the rest of the team hasnt got their transformation yet. It's senseless to cry about how much better that the new pyro is when in a few weeks the Soldier will be some demigod with some crazy heat seeking rockets or the like. Then he'll be overpowered compared to the base sniper.....Eh...
b) See A
c) The flare gun.....one thing people seem to fail to mention, and they may not know about depending on the maps they play, is that the flare gun cannot be fired underwater. It can be fired into the water and still work (without the afternurn) but if you are underwater and get into a fight you have no choice but to pull out the axe. That is a HUGE drawback to using this weapon. 99% of the time you'll get picked off by a engy, scout, soldier, pyro with shotgun, medic, spy, sniper, sentry, etc.


Quit crying and play the game. :D

[ShangoXG]

Quit crying and play the game. :D

Quoted for Truth.

also, i've noticed that GET OUT OF HERE STALKER likes to make polls, or at least i only ever see him on the forums making polls and replying to replies of the poll.

just sayin'.

[Timmah!]

All fair points except
the pyro did have some use it just wasn't good for much other than senrty protection

GTFO! Then you didn't know how to play the class properly. I can lead the board playing pyro on turbine or badlands without guarding any sentries. You just have to excercise a little self-preservation and use the terrain features to your advantage.

[Iron Lung]

All fair points except


GTFO! Then you didn't know how to play the class properly. I can lead the board playing pyro on turbine or badlands without guarding any sentries. You just have to excercise a little self-preservation and use the terrain features to your advantage.

Yeah.. a good pyro can rock the house if played properly. All the backburner does is encourage reckless pyro play. Drop the 50hp and I'll be happy. And timmahs right... leading the board as pyro was easy enough before...

[godslayer]

All fair points except


GTFO! Then you didn't know how to play the class properly. I can lead the board playing pyro on turbine or badlands without guarding any sentries. You just have to excercise a little self-preservation and use the terrain features to your advantage.

C'mon...if you're going to quote me at least quote the whole paragraph and not just a snippet which is incomplete without it's followup justification :D

Pyro is not my main class but he/she is top 4 and though the pyro did have some use it just wasn't good for much other than senrty protection. Soldier, Demo, and Scout were all better than the Pyro in close combat.

Given the right team^*, or a semi-permanent medic attachment, I can top the leaderboard as any class myself. That's not the point though.


*Disclaimer: By using the words "right team" I mean any team consisting of myself and any combination of the following: babies, people with no fingers, the blind, monkies (not including chimps), people with learning disablities that are worse than mine, people on the free weekend trials, chicks with di**s, those in a coma, etc.

[Timmah!]

LMFAO. I don't know what you just said, but <3 the disclaimer.

I just don't agree that soldiers, demos, and scouts are necessarily better at CQC. It just depends on how you utilize the abilities of the class. And I definitely disagree that demo's are better at CQC - that's my primary class and if I don't kill or seriously wound a pyro BEFORE he gets in close, I'm usually screwed. I have a trick for dealing with pyros, but it only works on the unobservant pyros - Iron Lung is never tricked :(

[GET OUT OF HERE STALKER]

My bet: the class will be nerfed back down before the end of the week.

[Iron Lung]

My bet: the class will be nerfed back down before the end of the week.

agree, we're either gonna see the back crits cut down to 50% or the hp dropped

[Haewood]

I was one that never thought the Pyro needed a big boost, so I feel what they got is a bit over the top. I was another that enjoyed playing the Pyro as it was, and each idividual addition is nice, but all of them together really over powers the class.

Yes I know that the other classes will get their boost, but Valve will continue to imbalance each class until the last class gets the update (Votes - Demoman).

I think the 50HPs should be dropped to 25. Right now with a medic and his run speed, he can charge across a building with a sentry shooting him and survive to circle strafe it. No other class could or should get close.

The backburner is fine. If anyone gets behind you, you should take the damage. Altho I'd like to see front crits removed. But not that breaking.

My biggest probelm is the Full damage at max range. It used to be that most classes running backwards away from a Pyro could kill him with their main weapon or a shotty if the Pyro just charged straight at you. but now the flame is so long and does full damage that most classes (other than a scout or another Pyro) will die once it is in range of the flame. Maybe the drop off in the past was a little weak, but full damage at the max distance makes the pyro way overpowered in most situations. Add that in with the other upgrades, it just tips the scales to much for the pyro.

[Herron]

It's like Valve didn't playtest this patch at all.

[Iron Lung]

Herron speaks the truth, as always, he should be working for fing valve IMO.

[Xzi]

It's alright, but as others mentioned before, It crits when it probably shouldnt, like the spy backstab.

[GET OUT OF HERE STALKER]

It's like Valve didn't playtest this patch at all.

It's Steam. Why waste money on things like testing when you can roll out patches by the hour?

I've heard there was once a time in computer software where you couldn't continually patch, and you actually had to test software and try to get it right the first time or you were sunk. Now it's like a perpetual beta testing program.

[Blonde]

Well they put out a patch yesterday and not a single thing was changed as far as the pyro goes. More and more I'm thinking we'll just have to get used to it. Prepare yourselves for that, folks.

[billy pilgrim]

It's Steam. Why waste money on things like testing when you can roll out patches by the hour?

I've heard there was once a time in computer software where you couldn't continually patch, and you actually had to test software and try to get it right the first time or you were sunk. Now it's like a perpetual beta testing program.

Yes such a thing did exist. But then the internet came along. I remeber when a game needed to be completly finished to even be available on a console. Now I have to sit there while my PS3 patchs GTA4. Anyone long for the days of "Plug n' Play"?

[hot6]

i finally got to play the update yesterday evening and yes this is the worst update valve has ever released. The backburner is ridiculous, it's hitboxes are bullshit that it still causes crits in front

[sturmwalzer]

i finally got to play the update yesterday evening and yes this is the worst update valve has ever released. The backburner is ridiculous, it's hitboxes are bullshit that it still causes crits in front

I agree, but I still use the Backburner if I play Pyro because I'm a huge hypocrite.

Actually it's because in the rare occasion I play Pyro, I play ambush so I like to kill things as fast as possible.

BUT I have noticed that Backburner likes to crit while I'm facing the Pyro or just slightly turned, like a Spy's backstab. But whatever - it just means players have to adjust to it and backpedal for a bit before they turn tail and run at full speed.

[Haewood]

I agree, but I still use the Backburner if I play Pyro because I'm a huge hypocrite.

Actually it's because in the rare occasion I play Pyro, I play ambush so I like to kill things as fast as possible.

BUT I have noticed that Backburner likes to crit while I'm facing the Pyro or just slightly turned, like a Spy's backstab. But whatever - it just means players have to adjust to it and backpedal for a bit before they turn tail and run at full speed.

Well seeing as the pyro is as fast as most classes besides scout, backpedalling is all you can do. Once you are caught within the flame, there is no escape unless you can hit the pyro with a rocket or a crit to back him off.

[Scharnhorst]

Im getting tired of the airgun. A pyro who knows what hes doing can basically shut down an uber and prevent it from accomplishing anything. Its kinda bullshit given that an uber was supposed to be able to kill hard to kill SGs and what not.

[Iron Lung]

aw, think it fits well with the general idea behind the pyro, that being to sow confusion and chaos.

[Blonde]

Pyros are like mosquitoes. They used to be a minor inconvenience, but now they're full of west nile and malaria. Valve needs to release the DDT.

[Mingus Dew]

Ok, I’m not too sure about this upgrade for pyros…its seems to really have had an affect on the game play. My biggest problem is the damage pyros now deal. They can now take out a lvl 3 SG, Engy, and Dispenser without help. I’m also very sad about the removal of the fall-off damage. Now as a medic (which is my main class and may explain why I don’t like the update) I have nothing against pyros when they rush, not even with the Blutsaugher to heal myself. These changes really take the skill out of playing pyro, its now just a rush and burn instead of an ambush class.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Even with these changes I can deal and adapt; however, what scares me is that this is a precursor of what’s to come. I’m afraid they’ll try to 1-up each previous patch, like they did with this one. The medic one made slight changes, but not they seem insignificant compared to the pyro update. Is the next going to tilt the scale even more??

[Iron Lung]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] They can now take out a lvl 3 SG, Engy, and Dispenser without help.

We could do that before.

But I'm still with you that the backburner needs changing

[Arkice]

They really could cut the health they get in half or make it so they can only get crits from behind. Meh, either way I still have no trouble with them.

[Scharnhorst]

Pyro update is seriously unbalanced as hell. I quit, might be back when heavy achievements come out

[steviewags]

I would be happy if they just put the falloff back on. The HP wouldn't be a huge problem if the backburner did full damage at any length. I'm a fan of the regular flamethrower though just for the air pressure and that's just me. I'm just tired of the 6+ pyro teams.

[AzzSazzin<TWM>]

I agree the hp bump should be halved and it shouldn't crit from the front but other than that I don't really mind the upgrades.

[sturmwalzer]

I would be happy if they just put the falloff back on. The HP wouldn't be a huge problem if the backburner did full damage at any length. I'm a fan of the regular flamethrower though just for the air pressure and that's just me. I'm just tired of the 6+ pyro teams.

I agree. I hate that I now die to a Pyro at any distance rather than noticing I'm on fire and having a bit more time to run away... but I'm adjusting and am paying much more attention to if there are any nearby Pyros to run from.

[Prosthetics]

Reasons why pyro is overpowered


1) Adding a new ability to a base weapon.
Compression airblast completely destroys ubers if someone smart is playing pyro, it also destroys a demo's chance at killing a sentry. Notice for medic, they added no new abilities to base weapons.

2) Adding 2 new abilities to a new weapon. +50 heath, and a broken crit triggering for attacks from behind.
They limited every medic weapon to get something new in return. Blutslaughter, no crits. Uber saw, less speed in attacks. critskrieg, no invulnerable. In no way did they limit the backburner, only added buffs to it, 2 might I add.

3) Valve said from the start they would not alter the strategy or mechanics of the game. Well they epic failed with the past 2 updates, making medic a combat ready class and making pyro a defensive class given my reasons in #1. Epic fail on valve's part and I dont get why they havn't changed it yet. I guess they are too busy making those little trading cards.

I felt like bumping this to reinstill rage :P

[Irvine]

Medic combat ready? Are you playing the same class I am? The syringe gun lets them have a chance to get out of a battle (a very small chance). That thing is barely accurate at long range and at close range you're doomed anyway so it's pretty much useless. Ubersaw kills are usually luck and i only use it for a quick hit and run for an extra boost, rarely will i ever try to kill someone with it unless it's kill or be killed.

Now with the health bonus on pyro gone they're leveled again. It may have altered the way we played but not by much. To separate a guy from his uber medic usually takes at least two blasts and that's if the medic is a decent distance, if i'm on uber i'm usually right next or sometimes in front of the person i'm ubering. If the medic is dumb enough to get himself seperated that easily then he deserves it. Same reason if an engineer is dumb enough to sit there and watch stickies land near his sentry instead of trying to blow them away, he deserves to have it blown up. It all depends on how attentive the player is.

[elemental00]

the only thing the compression blast does is save the life of whoever is on the receiving end.. ....with out the health, the pyro is nothing more than blasting fodder again for soldiers....come to think of it..im back to playing soldier

[Tango]

We have not ideas on what the achievement weapons are going to be for other classes, so it is hard to bash the first offensive class. I wonder if this many people were pissed at the uber saw?

[Sour Skittles*]

To make it competitive I think they should give the regular pyro a 25 or 30hp boost, so there compression blast thing has an advantage. It's fairly useful if you have two pyros or know what you're doing with it, but compared to the backburner it loses hands down. A health boost would even it out and give people a choice between using that or the backburner.

[Prosthetics]

We have not ideas on what the achievement weapons are going to be for other classes, so it is hard to bash the first offensive class. I wonder if this many people were pissed at the uber saw?

Well As I said, they gave a benefit to every weapon, but took something away at the same time. While the ubersaw did charge uber on hit, it attacks slower than the regular bonesaw. The pyro flamethrower weapons though only have additions to them, no costs to them. And as I said they even went an added a defensive function to the base flamethrower, mind you that the pyro is an offensive class.

[Timmah!]

Well at least they just removed the +50 health bonus with the backburner. Finally.

[elemental00]

Well at least they just removed the +50 health bonus with the backburner. Finally.

yep....pyros are no longer stand a chance against any decent soldier.. without the health its 1 rocket to juggle, and a rocket ANYWHERE near them. air blast.....use the shotty.

[Timmah!]

yep....pyros are no longer stand a chance against any decent soldier.. without the health its 1 rocket to juggle, and a rocket ANYWHERE near them. air blast.....use the shotty.
unless they get them from behind with the backburner. I was just playing soldier on cp_well and killed me my fair share of pyros, but there were a few times I was occupied with trying to take out a sentry and got rolled over by a backburner pyro.

Anyway... that's why it's called TEAM fortress 2. Every class has 1 or 2 other classes that they naturally do not fair well against.

And oh btw... notice the other update today... whenever a player suicides, the last player to damage them gets credit for the kill. So let's say you're a pyro and you catch a soldier off guard and start burning him up... the soldier spins around and hits you with a rocket. The rocket takes away half your health, but is enough to kill the soldier (thanks to the soldier nerf that came with the pyro upgrade). So even though the pyros lost the 50 health, they will get credit for more kills. Should it have always been that way? Sure. But it's flawed... if a pyro sets you on fire, and you kill that pyro before he can do much more damage (leaving you at say 100 health, and then you take some splash damage from a rocket or whatever, knocking you down to 5 health, and still on fire. Half a second later you're burned to death, and the pyro gets credit for killing you even though it really should just be an assist, and the soldier should get the kill credit. I know that happens to me plenty. I don't know where I'm going with this...
:sign0002:

[Cavallino Rampante]

Well As I said, they gave a benefit to every weapon, but took something away at the same time. While the ubersaw did charge uber on hit, it attacks slower than the regular bonesaw. The pyro flamethrower weapons though only have additions to them, no costs to them. And as I said they even went an added a defensive function to the base flamethrower, mind you that the pyro is an offensive class.
Not quite true. The backburner doesn't have the compression blast. The compression blast is IMO a useful defensive and offensive weapon. You can use it to get rid of anybody chasing you or give yourself some room to fight, or you can dump people in the water in 2fort :D

The backburner function is not strictly defensive. Using it, the player can develop his/her maneuvering strategy so when you are flaming someone, you always try to get the opponent to turn his back on you. I believe it is a fair upgrade to the flame thrower.

As Elemental said, the Pyro pack gives the class a fighting chance against heavier classes, just as the Medic pack did before it, and wisely I might add. But Valve might have overdone things a little bit with the 50+ HP, so I think the latest update is fair.

[Timmah!]

What Pros was saying is that compared to what the pyro USED to have, the new base flamethrower and the backburner are both upgrades. Sure you have to chose between the two, but the compression blast was a free upgrade with no tradeoff. Conversely, the backburner, vs the original (again, before the compression blast) has no tradeoff, either. The medic didn't get anything for free like that, and all the medic unlocks have drawbacks vs the base weapons to maintain balance.

[8bit]

Compression Blast was Valve admitting that the pyro as it was... was ill equipped, and had a hard time "bridging the gap" between himself and his opponent. This was a problem with the Pyro since Day 1. So they gave the regular flamethrower the Compression Blast, because they owed them that since Day 1. Then the unlock was the Back Burnner.. to encourage the highly vaunted "Ambush-play", if a Pyro manages to sneak up on an opponent he gets a couple free crits as a reward ^_^.

All this to say... the Medic didn't have any major problems like the Pyro did. So he didn't get any upgrades to his original gear.

-8bit

[Rommy]

I kind of find it amazing what the opinion from one server community to another varies. Here we mostly agree the 50 extra health was overpowering (I have seen a BB Pyro with a medic take out one of mah sentries and walk away). Teamfortress2fort(dot com) feels that the pyro nerf was mostly unjustified. Its kind of a neat flame war (pun intended) over there. Give it a read.

and Oh Yeah! 1st post!

[Timmah!]

That's because even after the nerf, I still see 4+ pyros running around on a team of 12. But at least now they're killable again. So I had me some fun as Heavy yesterday and had a rediculous KPD against all the pyros that charged straight at me apparently ignorant of the nerf. :p I've actually gotten pretty good as a Heavy!
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/timbenj/Minigun.gif

[elemental00]

That's because even after the nerf, I still see 4+ pyros running around on a team of 12. But at least now they're killable again. So I had me some fun as Heavy yesterday and had a rediculous KPD against all the pyros that charged straight at me apparently ignorant of the nerf. :p I've actually gotten pretty good as a Heavy!
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/timbenj/Minigun.gif

my next two classes im working on are heavy and demo.. ive been working on demo more than heavy..but i dabble..