free will?

[cixelsyd]

first off please don't flame.

when i look at bees and ants and things like that they seem to be cooperative, uniform, and a perfect society where no one ever has bad thoughts. they all work together for a common cause with no complaints. it leads me to the question if humans had no individuality or free will could we be a better society? we could be like a big machine but most people hate this idea for fear of losing their individuality. so my question is would you still want your individuality even if we could have a world where no one was hurt. (emotionally of course, pretty hard to make a world without physical pain) is it really that important to be you when you could be part of something better with no pain or suffering.

srs no flaming and i hope this thread doesn't hurt anyones feelings.

[eclyps]

meh. no real point in living if you're just a part of a machine.

[Glork]

I like this question.

My first reaction was "I'd like to say society without pain, but I probably love my free will much more than I realize."

No vote yet, but I'd probably vote free will if I had to vote right now.

[Phearr]

free will .

[Vee]

Ants and stuff don't have a choice, they all do the same thing. Life would suck for us if we did that. Heck I'd shoot my self if i had to work in a factory.

We should be able to choose our jobs more freely.

[Fatal1ty Wannabe]

Bees, ants, and the like don't have bad thoughts or free will because they don't have the brain capacity to do so. An ant does nothing more than act on instinct and chemical indicators. A society of ants can in no way be compared to a society of humans. Losing free will and individuality would mean that we have lost one of the things that make homo sapiens human.

[cixelsyd]

@ fatality, whgat it really comes down to is are we better off human? in our time here we've done more harm than good to the earth and other species

@ vee with this idea you wouldn't shoot yourself because you would not care that you worked in a factory.

[Catas]

Part of being human is being an individual and learning through all our faults.
A giant hivemind entity is hardly what I consider human.

[Timmah!]

I'm not sure how "no pain" is considered the opposite of "free will", TBH. But definitely free will.

The colonies of insects you speak of work very communally for the sake of survival of their species. But being at the top of the food chain means that hard-work and free will are not mutually exclusive. We are very communal, but we're far less instinctive and more conscious of our daily actions than insects. It's like the question is really: capitalism or communism? But we already know that all-out communism doesn't work.

[Fatal1ty Wannabe]

@ fatality, whgat it really comes down to is are we better off human? in our time here we've done more harm than good to the earth and other species


Wait you said emotional pain. Where does environmental damage come into play for this situation? I thought this was basically asking would you rather want to live in a place like now, or a place like 1984 or Brave New World where everybody seems "happy" etc.

[Racing Jag]

I have to go with free will.

Being human means you are an individual not a mindless robot.

[Glork]

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the question.


It isn't "do I, being defined as a human, want free will?"
It's "Do societies without free will function better than societies with free will?"

Of course, I could be the one misinterpreting things. But bees and ants live in complete harmony within their own societies (although ants do carry out organized warfare on other colonies), and if we are to assume that this harmony is caused by a lack of free will, is it reasonable to conclude that we would be "better off" as a society without free will?

[cixelsyd]

yes, glork is the one interpreting the question correctly.

[Fatal1ty Wannabe]

My problem with the proposition is that it is asking about something which is impossible to obtain in the first place. Debate all you want about how a society without free will is "better"; in the end it doesn't really matter because you cannot get rid of human's free will. Its this kind of mental masturbation that makes me hate philosophers.

[cixelsyd]

it's impossible right now to get rid of free will but what makes it impossible later in the future when technology has grown some more? we don't know very much about the brain right now but we could sometime in the future.

also philosophers are awesome. better to sit and think than to sit and do nothing amirite?

EDIT: also a new question arises that has been debated for a long time. do we really have free will? but that's for a different thread.

[Iron Lung]

I chose free will,

But the other option has its appeal for sure.

Most people are going to say "free will" because they simply can't imagine living any other way, I know I can't.

[Fatal1ty Wannabe]

it's impossible right now to get rid of free will but what makes it impossible later in the future when technology has grown some more? we don't know very much about the brain right now but we could sometime in the future.

also philosophers are awesome. better to sit and think than to sit and do nothing amirite?

EDIT: also a new question arises that has been debated for a long time. do we really have free will? but that's for a different thread.

Any scientist that is researching ways to get rid of human's free will should be stopped immediately for breach of ethics.

[Drunkbum515]

It would be awful. We would be mindless zombies, unable to produce and create in ways that benefit ourselves.

[Timmah!]

it's impossible right now to get rid of free will but what makes it impossible later in the future when technology has grown some more? we don't know very much about the brain right now but we could sometime in the future.

wat?

Actually, no, it's not really impossible to get rid of free will. Well, technically it may be, but there's an easy work-around. It's called deception. You simply convince people to agree that one course of action is best. For example: want to invade a foreign country and need popular support to do it? Get the CIA to make up some bullshit data about WMDs and then make up a story about malicious intent and BAM...instant war.

/edit: BTW, this thread is somewhat of a paradox. If you are going to choose anything but free will, well...guess what, you exercised your right to free will. But by choosing against choice, your choice shouldn't count. Hurr.

[Drunkbum515]

Actually, no, it's not really impossible to get rid of free will.
I think the Spanish Inquisition tried to get rid of free-will. That worked out well didn't it.

[cixelsyd]

BTW, this thread is somewhat of a paradox. If you are going to choose anything but free will, well...guess what, you exercised your right to free will. But by choosing against choice, your choice shouldn't count. Hurr.

i am choosing to give you +1 internetz

[Chord]

who says we have free will?

[Crimson]

I no to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Gv4wEj-2Q&feature=related

and Yes to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74

[NeonSteven]

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the question.


It isn't "do I, being defined as a human, want free will?"
It's "Do societies without free will function better than societies with free will?"


I agree, and the crux of the matter is how one defines "function better". For ants, function is just finding food, building nests, and making it to the next generation. They just live, nothing more.

While I understand the appeal of just living your life, peacefully and cooperatively, getting the daily chores done, I prefer to define function as scientific and cultural progress, and invention comes from those who choose to go against the grain and change the way we do things. That often means fighting your peers all the way there, but if Galileo hadn't done that, we might still think the earth was at the center of the solar system.

So I choose free will, because I don't want tomorrow to be the same as today.

[Manbearpig]

definately free will, im pretty big on this TBH i have nothing but the utmost respect for revolutionaries and their causes, when it comes to oppression and single minded societies id rather go out with a bang than live life like a lemming

[Arkice]

Our humanity is the only thing we truly own in this world. I would rather have my free will in tact. Pain is what gives the sensation of humanity. Painless order is why people want to be rich, why they want to become the "Queen of the Hive" in other words.


Fuck me and my damn speeches.

[InertiaCreep]

I personally don't enjoy philosophy that isn't practical, but as long as you have an imagination to connect this theoretical meandering to a practical end then it's fine to me. I think a human's main goal is happiness anyway, so having your head in the clouds and being happy is perfectly practical to me.

But that's the main issue... what is "good", what's the goal?

If you combined all human bodies and their expended energy and focused it, yes, very interesting things would get done. You're just focusing. But focusing to what end, or, what goal is good to strive for?

If we were engineered to be incredibly happy doing a particular task, we would all do it because we like to be happy. Then everyone would fit in their respective roles and the machine would be fine. Whether or not the machine's goal is any good, I don't know. Depends.

In other news, I watched a national geographic documentary on bugs, and there was a "rogue" female who tried to convert some of the yet-to-be-born bees into her own by changing their programming. She got caught by the guard bees (working under the current queen) and they gave her a whoopin.

[Red Salvo]

I choose free Will because I don't like being imprisoned.